Time to revise those ingrained grib habits!

IMHO, looks like anyone who has an ingrained habit of draping the non-trigger hand's index finger over the front of the trigger guard of a handgun for extra stability, probably better pay close attention to developing a brand new habit with the Shorty as depicted in Arne's videos... obviously the documentation coming with the new gun should point this out clearly for liability reasons. However, that won't stop me from wanting this little gem. Absolute reliability is paramount and this gun appears to have that, in spades, along with the extra power.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Fettig on January 25, 2010 at 6:46am

Well Bob, one way to lose that bad habit is to do it with a handgun like the Boberg. Thanks for the notice on this handgun--just when I was going to stop buying tools.

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on January 25, 2010 at 10:03am

I have large hands and I litteraly have to stretch my left index finger forward and up as far as it will go to get the tip of it in front of the muzzle. On my Kel-Tec P32, I can get the first joint of my index finger in front of the muzzle with very little effort. This seems to be par for the course with pocket pistols. See the Short gun slideshow: http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/photo/slideshow?albumId=2312567:Alb...

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on January 25, 2010 at 10:34am

I took some photos of a "wandering index finger" - remember, I have XL hands. Here is the slide show: http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/photo/slideshow?albumId=2312567:Alb...
If you have a "wandering index finger", and have very large hands, you could reach the muzzle of an XR9-S, and you should definitely not consider buying any other "mouse gun" in this size class.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Fettig on January 25, 2010 at 12:30pm

My first reply to Bob was my attempt at humor: resting the nonfiring index finger on the front of the guard is a habit some have; however, I don't think it is a good habit with any handgun, regardless of design or that hook some makers put on the front of the guard. As you have shown, with a proper or reasonable grip that finger shouldn't wander to the muzzle.
I know Bob and am glad that he brought your handgun to my attention. I like what you're doing Arne.

Arne Boberg said:

I took some photos of a "wandering index finger" - remember, I have XL hands. Here is the slide show: http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/photo/slideshow?albumId=2312567:Alb...
If you have a "wandering index finger", and have very large hands, you could reach the muzzle of an XR9-S, and you should definitely not consider buying any other "mouse gun" in this size class.

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on January 25, 2010 at 4:06pm

Jeff - you had me going for a second there! But it forced me to clear this thing up once and for all since it had been brought up on another forum recently.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Workman on January 26, 2010 at 8:05pm

Arne, I didn't mean any criticism whatsoever of your brilliant, ingenious design... - in fact, I should have added that you wisely left a tiny 'ledge' ahead of the trigger guard, rather than going straight up...just enough 'ledge' to remind a long finger where it's at, for anyone who happened to hold the gun with two hands, that way, for whatever reason. Personally, I don't ever do it that way; i always place my left hand supportively under the grip..it works best for me that way.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on January 29, 2010 at 10:56pm

Why EXACTLY is using the grip for stability a bad habit? I have small hands and my XD45 is checkered there for exactly that purpose; I place much better when I use the guard for purchase and my control is (obviously) much more solid. I can clear my in the pants holster and put three out of five in the first two rings, at speed and at 25 yards consistantly; the ONLY way I can achieve this is by using the guard for the added recoil control. Why exactly is this behavior a "bad habit" on my part?

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Permalink Reply by VMole8 on January 30, 2010 at 6:08am

Jason said:

Why EXACTLY is using the grip for stability a bad habit? I have small hands and my XD45 is checkered there for exactly that purpose; I place much better when I use the guard for purchase and my control is (obviously) much more solid. I can clear my in the pants holster and put three out of five in the first two rings, at speed and at 25 yards consistantly; the ONLY way I can achieve this is by using the guard for the added recoil control. Why exactly is this behavior a "bad habit" on my part?

Mainly because if you're shooting a pocket pistol you might slip and roast/blow off your finger.

Seriously though, while I have no way of knowing how solid and consistent that grip is for you to get into under extreme stress-- where you're not thinking about the shooting as much as what you're shooting at --it's indeed possible that it works best for you. But nobody that I've ever heard of who teaches combat shooting for a living teaches that grip. It's possible that if more people tried it they could make it work, but I suspect it's not taught because it's considered too intricate and less secure than a four-fingers on four-fingers style full grip. That's certainly how I feel about it, but I'm not a pistol instructor.

Target-narrow apertures are common on combat pistol sights too, but they hinder rapid sight acquisition, so some harmless texture on a trigger guard hardly surprises me nor means it needs to be utilized, rather it just accommodates a few more customers with no downside. Anyway, pocket guns are designed with inherent trade-offs, and disallowing fairly unorthodox technique on a defensive pistol that's 5" long but hits like a G26 is a trade-off most people will accept, and chances are pretty even that if you ever have to pull it out to fire, you'll end up shooting one handed anyway. But I'd certainly retrain if you value both this pistol's advantages and your index finger. Your call. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on January 30, 2010 at 8:15am

I've tried holding my left index finger on the front of the trigger guard of the XR9-S, but it slips down right away, as it should for a gun this short.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on January 31, 2010 at 3:39pm

For what it's worth, it would indeed be a bad habit with the Boberg....hahaha. The guard is RIGHT under the barrel. I like this gun.....what's the holdup, I wonder? There is a LOT of talk about it and the vast majority is good. I'm wondering if Arne is thinking about a standard frame after the pocket size has circulated a while. That would REALLY get my attention.

VMole8 said:

Jason said:
Why EXACTLY is using the grip for stability a bad habit? I have small hands and my XD45 is checkered there for exactly that purpose; I place much better when I use the guard for purchase and my control is (obviously) much more solid. I can clear my in the pants holster and put three out of five in the first two rings, at speed and at 25 yards consistantly; the ONLY way I can achieve this is by using the guard for the added recoil control. Why exactly is this behavior a "bad habit" on my part?

Mainly because if you're shooting a pocket pistol you might slip and roast/blow off your finger.

Seriously though, while I have no way of knowing how solid and consistent that grip is for you to get into under extreme stress-- where you're not thinking about the shooting as much as what you're shooting at --it's indeed possible that it works best for you. But nobody that I've ever heard of who teaches combat shooting for a living teaches that grip. It's possible that if more people tried it they could make it work, but I suspect it's not taught because it's considered too intricate and less secure than a four-fingers on four-fingers style full grip. That's certainly how I feel about it, but I'm not a pistol instructor.

Target-narrow apertures are common on combat pistol sights too, but they hinder rapid sight acquisition, so some harmless texture on a trigger guard hardly surprises me nor means it needs to be utilized, rather it just accommodates a few more customers with no downside. Anyway, pocket guns are designed with inherent trade-offs, and disallowing fairly unorthodox technique on a defensive pistol that's 5" long but hits like a G26 is a trade-off most people will accept, and chances are pretty even that if you ever have to pull it out to fire, you'll end up shooting one handed anyway. But I'd certainly retrain if you value both this pistol's advantages and your index finger. Your call. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on January 31, 2010 at 5:17pm

"what's the holdup, I wonder"

Each part requires 50 -100 hours of engineering to reduce its fabrication cost (not including pins, springs, screws, etc). This does not include the time it takes to make the fixutures, which is thousands of hours of machining. If these gun parts were sent to a local machine shop and done the conventional way, we would have to charge $4K-$6k per gun.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Fettig on February 1, 2010 at 12:17am

Arne, when you allow me to place an order, I promise to shoot the hell out of my Boberg and send y'all before-and-after pictures of my fingers:) I appreciate you taking the time to do this right.

During a CCW course several years ago, the lead instructor, also a court-accepted expert for firearm-related cases, showed me that my finger-forward grip was unnecessary. Furthermore, he didn't allow it in the class, regardless of experience. Shooters should consider that there are several variables to proper handgun control and fingering the front of the trigger guard may be a poor substitute for a better solution. I encourage anyone with doubts about giving up the front of the trigger guard to take a class from a certified handgun instructor.