Single Action

Are there plans to offer the XR9 (or another Boberg-type action pistol) with a da/sa trigger? The current model is obviously meant as a pure self defense gun, but a future model with a full length barrel, single action trigger, and decocker would make a great range gun, or even a very concealable sidearm.

-Mr. Alloy

Tags: Full size, Single action

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on February 18, 2010 at 10:10am

I have pondered this idea in the past. The current design, as you may have seen, has a flush hammer. We could do either of two things here - add a spur to the hammer (which will increase chance of pocket-snagging) or add a cut-out in the slide (and move the rear sight forward a bit) so you could "find" the hammer with your thumbnail (I personally don't like that idea). With SA/DA, the proposed California manual safety would become standard. Also, we would have to squeeze in a cocking sear in an already tight assembly. I personally would like a SA/DA pistol for target shooting, so I am guessing this is something we will look into in the future.

I just thought of another idea - have the hammer look like it is part of the slide, making the gun less prone to snagging. From the side, you would see a line where the hammer and slide separate. The gun would be drop safe no matter what due to the passive firing pin safety.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Alloy on February 20, 2010 at 8:44am

If you offer this, I sure as hell will have a DAO Shorty and a SA/DA Full to my name. And however you design the hammer, I'm sure it will be done right, judging by what you've done with this design so far!

Other than the longer grip/flatter mag baseplate, what are the changes from Mk8 to Mk9?

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on February 20, 2010 at 7:30pm

Gen 8 to Gen 9 incoporated dozens of changes, mostly internally, to maximize surface contact area of "pounding" surfaces, such as where the unlock block interfaces with the frame. Keep in mind that the barrel stops from a very high speed when the locking lugs disengage from the slide. We also made several changes to improve manufacturability that also helped durability.

We didn't make the floorplate of the magazine wider - we just made it shorter. The taller version you see in the Gen 8 photos worked OK, but it made the stationary (frame) part of the front strap shorter, so your middle finger would clinch a movable part (the magazine, which has some "play" in the frame) and just didn't feel as solid to me as the original Gen 7 design (with the short floorplate) that allowed your middle finger to clinch the frame of the gun. The only reason we went to the tall floorplate in the first place was because of the artist's rendering we got from the industrial design firm.

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on February 20, 2010 at 8:53pm

In my last post substitute "ring finger" for "middle finger".

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Permalink Reply by riffraff on February 28, 2010 at 10:39am

I have to agree with Mr. Alloy 100 %. A DA/SA with a decocking lever would be perfection. IMO the DA/SA with decodking lever is tha absolute perfection of the automatic handgun design. The lever must be on the frame though, not the slide. Sig and CZ have a very good placement, wheras the placement on the Walther PPK is terrible.

Mikey

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Permalink Reply by bpel on March 3, 2010 at 10:27pm

I also would like a full size SA/DA to go along with my DAO Shorty

Mr. Alloy said:

If you offer this, I sure as hell will have a DAO Shorty and a SA/DA Full to my name. And however you design the hammer, I'm sure it will be done right, judging by what you've done with this design so far!

Other than the longer grip/flatter mag baseplate, what are the changes from Mk8 to Mk9?

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Permalink Reply by Fenris on March 8, 2010 at 9:04am

I also favor a DA/SA w/ decocker similar to the Sig configuration. However, I would suggest that the CA-Safety be made optional. In any kind of defense situation manual safeties get you killed. (exception noted for those who cut their teeth on the 1911's.

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Permalink Reply by VMole8 on March 9, 2010 at 4:22am

Fenris said:

I also favor a DA/SA w/ decocker similar to the Sig configuration. However, I would suggest that the CA-Safety be made optional. In any kind of defense situation manual safeties get you killed. (exception noted for those who cut their teeth on the 1911's.

Whether or not the safety is included, it's always optional. And in this case it's not really practical as a carry safety-- more of a lockout. The fire position would be the expected assembled position of the takedown switch. I'm not sure if Arne's going to bother with a further complication (to borrow a watch term) at this point depending on what he hears back from the CA DOJ about the slide-lock-on-empty requirement that they may have recently added.

Personally, I don't get the desire for DA/SA in a carry gun. The industry and US market has moved to medium length, medium weight, constant pull triggers over the years for combat pistols. This is for two reasons. When you're really scared and in a hurry you get a little clumsy, and, most relevantly, you lose a bit of your sense of how much force you're applying and where with your fingers. You also tend to forget to do things like decock, even with a bit of training. So next thing you know you're covering a wounded guy or you're aiming where he was a second before he dropped and, due to not being conscious of the transition in trigger feel, your way too twitchy and adrenaline numbed finger does an involuntary "check" on the now 4# glass trigger and you get a negligent homocide or murder 3 charge. Many people who purchase this gun won't train like we'd all like to, and frankly you don't want to have to pound through controlled pairs at the range with a pocket pistol just to keep up the "trigger transition > decock" drill in your muscle memory.

For this application, KISS is the controlling principle.

I will say that short resets are nice on a defensive pistol, but that requires striker operation ill-suited to this design or some engineering magic, like H&K's LEM module, that would be a cost, if not size, prohibitive nightmare to cram into a gun this small, let alone using an alloy frame.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Orchard on March 12, 2010 at 1:07am

If you have a tremor problem (age related or other-wise), a nice DA pull steadies things down.
I have seen an older friend of mine repeatedly hit a 200 meter steel pig with a Kahr pocket 9x19mm, so if the DA pull is conssitant, the accurascy potential is THERE.
Long ago when I shot IPSC with a DA/SA revolver, I shot DA ONLY, even for the stop plates that were occassionally as far away as 75 yds.

Just got a Taurus 709, and I wish it were DA only, instead ofSA/DA 2nd-strike.
My most-trusted carry-piece is a 640 S&W, and it saved my bacon when a range bull nearly got me a few years ago.
Single action autos are an undesireable anachronism, IMO...
Also, I want nothing but defence oriented pistols, and in that realm, the simpler the better.

Dave3220

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on March 12, 2010 at 9:53am

Those who have dry-fired or shot the XR9 really like the smooth, steady pull. Does the Taurus 709 feel like a true single action in SA mode? How is the DA mode?

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Permalink Reply by Fenris on March 12, 2010 at 10:50am

I am satisfied with DAO for a pocket carry, backup gun. But I have a strong preference for the DA/SA. I carry a Sig 226 DA/SA and in SA (after first shot) offers much faster and accurate follow-ups. Though I don't think it necessarily needs a spurred hammer. I am definately not a fan of safeties though for a couple of reasons.

First, a manual safety is just one more damn thing to remember, forget, fumble, get wrong in a high stress situation. Second, in a courtroom you can be challenged on when you disengaged the safety, why you you desngaged it, Did you forget to have the safety on at all, if you had already decided to shoot, etc, etc. Why give the lawyers one more decision point to second guess for a jury with limited understanding of the issue. The trigger is my safety. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Orchard on March 12, 2010 at 11:15am

Mr.Boberg,
The Taurus 709 has a long two-stage take-up before a fairly crisp SA pull...There is over-travel, but I woudl rather have over-travel than a sear whcih cannot be released due to too tight an over-travel screw adjustment, or a broken stirrup (like on 1911s w/ over-travel screw that is set OK till stirrup breaks and things go gunnybag...)

DA pull was pretty nice but not super consistant, and is there only in case you have a hard primer.(Sometimes it does not "re-set")(?????)

At first, SA was aprox. 8 or 10 lbs..

I disassembled the front part of the trigger linkage and put it back together and it is now aprox 5 or 6 lbs. , and DA is where it has always been, around 7 or 8 lbs.

It is a fairly nice pistol, with some potential, but I don't trust it for serious defensive carry. (Mebbe if I get 500 + rds. thru it FLAWLESSLY, I might begin to carry it instead of my M-640 or old alloy-frame S&W M-12 K-frame, but not until that time....)
I have more "faith" in my Kel-Tecs....

Dave3220 /journeyman curmudgeon