full size 9mm

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by GONRA; on December 2, 2011 at 4:15pm

Arne Boberg said:

 I also want to do a 5.9" long .45 auto with a 4" barrel.

GONRA suggests starting a formal "buyer's list" for the .45 ACP project.

I assume it will have the general appearance and operation as the present 9mm model.

In that event, please put me on the list.  THANX!

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Permalink Reply by Blueorison on December 2, 2011 at 5:13pm

2nd that.

Put me down for any future ones.  Would a bottleneck cartridge like the SIG have excessive pressure?  I would like one in .357SIG.

Jonathan

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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on December 2, 2011 at 6:49pm

Nothing that the XR9-S lockup can't handle.

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Permalink Reply by Blueorison on December 2, 2011 at 6:58pm

AWESOME.

I want one.

Even if it takes 5-7 years...

Glad to see the reviews going on strong and exuberant on your brainchild! :)

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Permalink Reply by Ed on December 3, 2011 at 3:51pm

Musings on barrel lengths, calibers and defense ammunition choices.

One of the joys of living in Florida is firing on an outdoor range on a sunny day in late November. While firing a 30 year old .380 Auto pistol and a 90 year old Colt 1903 .32 Auto pistol, my friend and I noticed that the brass on the ground on the firing line around us was mostly .40 S&W and .45 Auto. Our brass looked so inadequate. In the past few years sales of .380 Auto and 9mm Luger pistols may have been high, but on that afternoon people were shooting the larger caliber weapons. This stuck out in my mind when I saw a short blog describing the favorable  impressions of firing a full size rotating barrel action Beretta Px4 in .45 ACP from experienced shooters of the 1911 pistol:

http://stuckinmassachusetts.blogspot.com/2011/12/friday-gun-pr0n-24...

Beretta provides a specification matrix for the Px4 Storm product line. Please note that this .45 Auto is much too big for concealed carry but uses a 4” barrel. A larger .45 Auto Px4 uses a 4.6” barrel. The 9mm/.40 S&W Sub-Compact model is also very interesting, but still larger than a “pocket” pistol:

http://www.berettausa.com/products/px4-storm-f-45acp-910-rd-mag/

The Beretta Px4Sub-Compact has a capacity of 10 rounds .40 S&W or 13 rounds 9mm, barrel length 3.0”, overall length 6.2”, height 4.8”, width 1.4”, weight empty 26.1 oz.

Better still than a 4” barreled XR45-S or 5” barreled XR45-L would be a XR40-S in .40 S&W, which according to Massad Ayoob has been the caliber of choice for many police departments:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

“Experience has taught police that what actually happens on the street is more important than what happens in the artificial environment of the laboratory. The 9mm round now acknowledged to work the best is a 124-grain to 127-grain high tech hollow point at a velocity of 1250 feet per second. NYPD, with some 30,000 officers carrying this type of ammo, the Speer Gold Dot +P 124-grain, is happy with the performance of its 9mm service pistols. Ditto the Orlando, Florida, Police Department, which uses the Winchester Ranger 127-grain +P+ in their standard issue 9mm SIGs.

Most other departments have gone to more powerful rounds. The .40 S&W caliber is the overwhelming top choice of police departments today, followed by the .357 SIG and the .45. Created to duplicate the best ballistics of the .357 Magnum revolver in a semiautomatic pistol, the .357 SIG spits a 125-grain jacketed hollow point at 1300 to 1400 feet per second, delivering 500-plus foot-pounds of energy. Departments which have adopted it are delighted with the performance, reporting a high frequency of one-shot stops. The Virginia State Police, who issue the .357 SIG Model P229 pistol, told me that they were particularly pleased with the number of felons who dropped and stopped fighting after receiving non-fatal wounds in non-vital parts of the body.

In .40 caliber, the original 180-grain hollow point at subsonic velocity has worked better than expected, but the star performers in .40 ammo tend to be high tech bullets such as the Winchester SXT or Ranger T, the CCI Gold Dot, and the Remington Golden Saber with 155-grain bullets at 1200 foot-seconds or 165-grain bullets at 1140 to 1150 feet per second. Using the 165-grain Ranger in their .40 caliber Glocks, the Nashville, Tennessee, Police have amassed a long series of impressive one-shot stops.

In .45 caliber, the matured Federal Hydra-Shok design is something of a gold standard, and the Winchester SXT, Remington Golden Saber, and CCI Gold Dot also have delivered impressive performance in the field. These bullets reliably open up and get the job done. In .45 Auto, the 230-grain bullet at some 880 foot seconds has become standard in police work. Note that all of these are high-tech projectiles, what is known in the trade as “premium ammunition.””

TNOutdoors9 has a good video demonstrating the capability of the Speer Gold Dot 180 gr. .40 S&W round fired from a full sized 4.5” barrel Glock 22 pistol through 4 layers of denim into SIM-TEST ballistic media:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39NDONv3MQY&feature=related

To be ammunition neutral, TBOutdoors9 also tested Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr. .40 S&W rounds (the 9mm round is nicely pictured in Boberg Arms’ XR9-S slide show) with a similar test methodology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkOV3MJI1FU&feature=relmfu

Let’s look at the manufacturer’s stated performance of Speer’s Gold Dot and Gold Dot Short Barrel rounds:

http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/default.aspx

Note that Speer uses 4” test barrels for 9mm and .40 S&W but uses a 5” inch test barrel for .45 ACP. For their Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition, Speer uses 3.5” test barrels for 9mm and .40 S&W but uses a 4” inch test barrel for .45 ACP.

Speer Gold Dot performance specs:

.380 Auto           90 gr.      990 fps 196 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

9mm                 147 gr.     990 fps 320 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

9mm                 124 gr.   1150 fps 364 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

9mm Luger +P   124 gr.   1220 fps  410 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.40 S&W            200 gr.    915 fps  372 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.40 S&W           180 gr.   1025 fps  420 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.40 S&W           165 gr.   1150 fps  484 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

40 S&W            155 gr.   1200 fps  496  ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.45 Auto            230 gr.     890 fps  404 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.45 Auto          200 gr.  1080 fps  518 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

45 Auto          185 gr.   1050 fps  453 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

Gold Dot Short Barrel:

9mm Luger +P 124 gr.  1150 fps  364 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

40 S&W          180 gr.     950 fps  361 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.45 Auto           230 gr.    820 fps  343 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

It would be interesting to see how the performance of the XR9-S firing the various Gold Dot 9mm Luger rounds and the Gold Dot Short Barrel 124 gr. 9mm Luger +P rounds compares to Gold Dot’s stated results.

Interesting things happen when you attempt to calculate the muzzle energy for various ammunition rounds from the SAAMI specifications and compare the average pressures in the chamber (MAP = Mean Average Pressure, transducer measured):

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/do...

http://www.airhog.com/convert.htm

.380 Auto           95 gr.     990 fps  17,000 MAP   207 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

9mm                 124 gr.  1090 fps  35,000 MAP   327 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

9mm Luger +P   115 gr.  1235 fps  38,500 MAP   390 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.40 S&W           180 gr.    985 fps  35,000 MAP   388 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

40 S&W            155 gr.  1195 fps  35,000 MAP   492 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.45 Auto            230 gr.    830 fps  21,000 MAP   352 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

.45 Auto +P      185 gr.   1130 fps  23,000 MAP   525 ft-lbs. Muzzle Energy

So we can see the progression where historically it was understood that in standard loads 230gr. .45 Auto was more powerful than 124 gr. 9mm Luger, which was more powerful than 95 gr. .380 Auto. This progression has been disrupted with the introduction of +P loads in both 9mm and .45 Auto and the introduction of the .40 S&W round, especially with the .40’s lighter and faster bullets. Now, the maximum muzzle energy .45 Auto round is more powerful than the  maximum muzzle energy of the .40 S&W round, which is more powerful than the maximum muzzle energy of the 9mm Luger round. The .380 has a little more than half the muzzle energy of the fastest 9mm Luger +P round, which calls into question the wisdom of why you would choose to carry a a .380 Auto if a comparably sized pistol capable of handling the 9mm Luger +P round was available. When using Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition in the shorter test barrel lengths, the .45 Auto, .40 S&W and the 9mm +P deliver muzzle energies of 343, 361 and 364 ft-pounds respectively, a remarkably close range of values. A 9mm Luger +P capable pistol needs to handle chamber pressures 10% higher than those that fire the .40 S&W round, while the chamber pressure of a .45 Auto +P capable pistol is 66% of the .40 S&W capable pistol.

If Boberg Arms would introduce a XR40-S to complement the XR-9S and satisfy the demand for a larger caliber pistol, it would compete well with the Px4 (discussed earlier), Sig P239, Kahr PM40 and the Kahr KM40.

The single stack magazine, aluminum alloy framed, stainless steel slide, .40 S&W Sig P239 has been a popular concealed carry weapon for both police and non-police.

.40 S&W Sig P239 specs:

http://sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p239.aspx

Capacity 7+1, barrel length 3.6”, overall length 6.6”, height 5.1”, width 1.2”, weight empty with magazine 29.5 oz.

The 9mm version of the Sig P239 has 8+1 capacity.

Polymer frame Kahr PM40 spec:

Capacity 5+1, barrel length 3.0”, overall length 5.65”, height 4.3”, width 1.10”, weight empty 18.5 oz.

Stainless steel frame Kahr KM40 specs:

Capacity 5+1, barrel length 3.0”, overall length 5.65”, height 4.3”, width 1.10”, weight empty 25.0 oz.

The XR9-S is 5.1” length overall with a 3.35” length barrel, giving a non-barrel length of 1.75”.

Using the Sig 3.6” barrel length for the XR40-S would give an overall length of 5.35”. This is 0.30” shorter than the two Kahr .40 S&W pistols, but should deliver better performance than the Kahrs because of the longer barrel and rotating barrel action.

Using a 3.5” barrel length (test barrel length for .40 S&W Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition) for the XR40-S would yield a 5.25” length overall, comparable to the 5.2” overall length of the Rohrbaugh R9.

Reducing the capacity of the XR40-S from 7+1 to 6+1 would allow the height to remain at around 4.2” while matching the capacity of a Rohrbaugh R9.

While a XR45-S or XR45-L is a desirable long term goal, a XR40-S may be more practical as a short term sales generator, especially compared to the Rohrbaugh R9.

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by BretShooter on December 4, 2011 at 12:14am

I agree.  Plus the XR40S's potential for commonality of existing XR9S parts makes it SO much easier to design and make.

I want one.  And the XR45.

BTW, the Px4 shorty has a standard browning tilting barrel, unlike it's larger brother.  I would guess that the cam slot takes up more room than the combined length of barrel lug and frame ramp, thus making it impossible to recoil spring it in the standard location below the barrel.  Another Boberg innovation.

Ed said:

While a XR45-S or XR45-L is a desirable long term goal, a XR40-S may be more practical as a short term sales generator, especially compared to the Rohrbaugh R9.

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Ed on December 4, 2011 at 9:27am

Bretshooter,

I agree with you. The major point I wanted to make was that when considering calibers other than 9mm Luger, move up in the choices of caliber, not down. The Rohrbaugh R9 to Rohrbaugh R380 brand extension may open foreign markets that cannot utilize a "military" caliber, but given a choice between comparable 9mm Luger and .380 Auto pistols in the U.S. market, the 9mm Luger is the selection to make. The .40 S&W does offer the opportunity to utilize the current design. Even though some manufacturers such as Kimber do offer .45 ACP pistols with 3" barrels, I would really like to see comparable chronograph results with varying barrel lengths such as Speer offered with their Gold Dot and Gold Dot Short Barrel product lines. I have read that some prefer to use the non-Short Barrel rounds in barrels shorter than the test barrels used by the manufacturer, with the tradeoff being powder continuing to burn after the round has left the barrel with no substantial increase in velocity. Going with a longer barrel than on the XR45-S may be necessary to get the full advantage of the larger caliber and justify the XR45-L option. For example, many state that if concealability, weight and round capacity are not important then for both 9mm Luger and .40 S&W the 4.4" barreled SIG P226 is preferred over the SIG 3.9" barreled P228/P229, which is preferred over the 3.6" barreled SIG P239. Some argue that the 3.6" barreled SIG P239 is not significantly shorter than the 4" test barrel used by Gold Dot and does not require shifting to Gold Dot Short Barrel rounds that are tested with a 3.5" barrel. The tradeoffs for each choice must be considered, but keep in mind that for the pistol to be effective it must be with you, not in a safe or range bag.

Discussion of the 9mm Luger and .40 S&W choice:

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/being-wrong-is-important-and-admitting...

Good explanation of ammunition capabilities:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

BTW, I did not intend to slight the .357 SIG option, but the SAAMI document I had did not include that round. Many prefer the faster .357 SIG at a chamber pressure of 40,000 psi (compare to 9mm Luger +P at 38,500 psi) over the .40 S&W at a chamber pressure of 35,000 psi, despite the significantly less mass and diameter of the round. Many prefer heavier bullets within a caliber and overall despite the slower speeds of the heavier bullets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

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Permalink Reply by Aron on December 4, 2011 at 9:49am

Due to the fact that the .357 sig case is derived from the 40s&w would it make it possible to use the same platform for both rounds  by just using a different barrel?

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Permalink Reply by BretShooter on December 4, 2011 at 11:27am

I again agree that up in size is better than down, especially given the relatively light recoil with the rotating barrel design.  If Rohrbaugh were to offer a 40, it would have brutal recoil, and it's already short lifespan would be reduced further.  380 made more sense for them for shootability concerns.  And overseas non military caliber markets must be small compared to the US market.

Ed said:

Bretshooter,

I agree with you. The major point I wanted to make was that when considering calibers other than 9mm Luger, move up in the choices of caliber, not down. The Rohrbaugh R9 to Rohrbaugh R380 brand extension may open foreign markets that cannot utilize a "military" caliber, but given a choice between comparable 9mm Luger and .380 Auto pistols in the U.S. market, the 9mm Luger is the selection to make.

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Permalink Reply by BretShooter on December 4, 2011 at 11:28am

It has worked that way for other pistol designs...

Arontee said:

Due to the fact that the .357 sig case is derived from the 40s&w would it make it possible to use the same platform for both rounds  by just using a different barrel?

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