cleaning
Hi Arne, i wanted to ask you about most important question about your gun, jamming! Is it picky about ammo or is there any brand ammo shorty doesnt like? Does it jam due to dirty barrel etc after 100 or 200 rounds? Thanks
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on -
Anyone who has developed semi-automatic firearms has gone through hundred of jams in order to work out the kinks. For conventional semi-autos, it is a matter of "timing" all of the springs to get the case flange to flip under the extractor in front of the bolt without the bullet nose lodging into the feed ramp. The XR9 had its unique set of problems during its 7-year development. When something went wrong, it took a lot of sleuthing because there could be more than one factor causing the problem. One example was where the live round would simply fall out of the gun (rather than go in the chamber). It took me several weeks to determine that the tong was being opened by the insert block and couldn't get a good grip on the cartridge, and the tong was getting partially opened up by an interference with the magazine. Fortunately, the fixes for these problems was to remove material from the offending parts (and update the drawings). Another example was where the magazine front would expand over time and cause occasional problems - very hard to find. Turns out that the magazine front needed to be stress relieved (stabilized) before being put into use. Even heavy gage materials can move if they have embedded stresses.
Then there was the time where I had shot 300 flawless rounds on the 25-yard range before taking the gun to my bullet trap for testing an experimental barrel. I always start out with hard-guarding around the gun when testing new barrel metallurgy. When test firing in the guarding, the slide would suddenly stop in mid stroke. It couldn't be the barrel, I thought - the geometry was the same. Then I would go back to the 25-yard and shoot with no problems. As it turned out, when my hands recoiled up, the slide was hitting the guarding, causing it to stop in mid stroke. While this was not a "jam" per se (all I had to do was pull the slide back the rest of the way and let go) it was an unexplained stoppage caused by my stupidity.
I have not seen any manufacturer guarantee any handgun to be jam-proof. There are just too many variables. While you see people shooting guns through their coat pockets in the movies, we all know that the slide in semi-autos can hang up on the fabric. Revolver cylinders can lock up with fouling at the forcing cone. No mechanical device is 100% foolproof.
What I have tried to do with the XR9 is create a positive mechanism that does not rely on bullet shape. The only caveat is that the ammo has to have a good crimp (just as is required in airweight revolvers) to prevent bullet back-out. Aluminum-cased ammo normally is not crimped and will come apart. The experience for aluminum-cases ammo is something like this: Chamber and fire first round, pull trigger again and you hear a "pop" (just the primer going off); eject fired case; remove magazine and pick out the lone bullet sitting on top.
I have shot at least 1000 straight without any type of cleaning or lube. Lubricant merely reduces the wear and tear - it does not affect reliability. Some have aired concerns about debris getting in the lifting mechanism. With US ammo, this area stays very clean. When I run some of the cruddier Russian ammo through there, it is a different story. I had run a 1/2-case (500 rounds) through the XR9-S of this stuff and the whole inside of the gun was covered with cruddy black stuff. I used a spray product called "Gun Scrubber" and the gun was spotless in seconds (I got this stuff about 20 years ago - I hope they still make it). By the way, this Russian ammo was steel cased with some kind of sticky varnish on it - but that didn't affect feeding in the XR9 one bit.
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Permalink Reply by hakan seckin on -
Thanks Arne for all the information. About your Russian ammo complains! I think only good think about Russia is vodka and Russian girls as far as my experience. :)
Arne Boberg said:Anyone who has developed semi-automatic firearms has gone through hundred of jams in order to work out the kinks. For conventional semi-autos, it is a matter of "timing" all of the springs to get the case flange to flip under the extractor in front of the bolt without the bullet nose lodging into the feed ramp. The XR9 had its unique set of problems during its 7-year development. When something went wrong, it took a lot of sleuthing because there could be more than one factor causing the problem. One example was where the live round would simply fall out of the gun (rather than go in the chamber). It took me several weeks to determine that the tong was being opened by the insert block and couldn't get a good grip on the cartridge, and the tong was getting partially opened up by an interference with the magazine. Fortunately, the fixes for these problems was to remove material from the offending parts (and update the drawings). Another example was where the magazine front would expand over time and cause occasional problems - very hard to find. Turns out that the magazine front needed to be stress relieved (stabilized) before being put into use. Even heavy gage materials can move if they have embedded stresses.
Then there was the time where I had shot 300 flawless rounds on the 25-yard range before taking the gun to my bullet trap for testing an experimental barrel. I always start out with hard-guarding around the gun when testing new barrel metallurgy. When test firing in the guarding, the slide would suddenly stop in mid stroke. It couldn't be the barrel, I thought - the geometry was the same. Then I would go back to the 25-yard and shoot with no problems. As it turned out, when my hands recoiled up, the slide was hitting the guarding, causing it to stop in mid stroke. While this was not a "jam" per se (all I had to do was pull the slide back the rest of the way and let go) it was an unexplained stoppage caused by my stupidity.
I have not seen any manufacturer guarantee any handgun to be jam-proof. There are just too many variables. While you see people shooting guns through their coat pockets in the movies, we all know that the slide in semi-autos can hang up on the fabric. Revolver cylinders can lock up with fouling at the forcing cone. No mechanical device is 100% foolproof.
What I have tried to do with the XR9 is create a positive mechanism that does not rely on bullet shape. The only caveat is that the ammo has to have a good crimp (just as is required in airweight revolvers) to prevent bullet back-out. Aluminum-cased ammo normally is not crimped and will come apart. The experience for aluminum-cases ammo is something like this: Chamber and fire first round, pull trigger again and you hear a "pop" (just the primer going off); eject fired case; remove magazine and pick out the lone bullet sitting on top.
I have shot at least 1000 straight without any type of cleaning or lube. Lubricant merely reduces the wear and tear - it does not affect reliability. Some have aired concerns about debris getting in the lifting mechanism. With US ammo, this area stays very clean. When I run some of the cruddier Russian ammo through there, it is a different story. I had run a 1/2-case (500 rounds) through the XR9-S of this stuff and the whole inside of the gun was covered with cruddy black stuff. I used a spray product called "Gun Scrubber" and the gun was spotless in seconds (I got this stuff about 20 years ago - I hope they still make it). By the way, this Russian ammo was steel cased with some kind of sticky varnish on it - but that didn't affect feeding in the XR9 one bit.
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on
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The Russian ammo worked fine - it was just stinky and dirty!
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Permalink Reply by hakan seckin on
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so what kind of pistol or pistols you currently own beside Shorty?
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Permalink Reply by hakan seckin on
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it is good to know that shorty doesnt care about the ammo shape. i used to love my Ruger Mark II until it started to feed the bullets against the feeding ramp a few mos ago. Bullet just gets to feed right front of the lip of feeding ramp. Actually the feeding ramp front lip just cuts in to the bullet lead like a knife! When i called the factory about this sad experience, they just kept telling me that Ruger is the best gun on the world and never do such jamming like that! Well, if manufacturer of a famous gun doesnt even listen their clients, that is a sad thing for customers! After i did many search on the net about this problem, i found out that bullet shape is one of the reason for this nightmare! So i stopped using hollow points and got in to a big search to find the best bullet shape for my gun. But as far as i understand, Shorty`s feeding system doesnt care about bullet`s shape and i assume that should help a lot to avoid jamming.
Arne Boberg said:Anyone who has developed semi-automatic firearms has gone through hundred of jams in order to work out the kinks. For conventional semi-autos, it is a matter of "timing" all of the springs to get the case flange to flip under the extractor in front of the bolt without the bullet nose lodging into the feed ramp. The XR9 had its unique set of problems during its 7-year development. When something went wrong, it took a lot of sleuthing because there could be more than one factor causing the problem. One example was where the live round would simply fall out of the gun (rather than go in the chamber). It took me several weeks to determine that the tong was being opened by the insert block and couldn't get a good grip on the cartridge, and the tong was getting partially opened up by an interference with the magazine. Fortunately, the fixes for these problems was to remove material from the offending parts (and update the drawings). Another example was where the magazine front would expand over time and cause occasional problems - very hard to find. Turns out that the magazine front needed to be stress relieved (stabilized) before being put into use. Even heavy gage materials can move if they have embedded stresses.
Then there was the time where I had shot 300 flawless rounds on the 25-yard range before taking the gun to my bullet trap for testing an experimental barrel. I always start out with hard-guarding around the gun when testing new barrel metallurgy. When test firing in the guarding, the slide would suddenly stop in mid stroke. It couldn't be the barrel, I thought - the geometry was the same. Then I would go back to the 25-yard and shoot with no problems. As it turned out, when my hands recoiled up, the slide was hitting the guarding, causing it to stop in mid stroke. While this was not a "jam" per se (all I had to do was pull the slide back the rest of the way and let go) it was an unexplained stoppage caused by my stupidity.
I have not seen any manufacturer guarantee any handgun to be jam-proof. There are just too many variables. While you see people shooting guns through their coat pockets in the movies, we all know that the slide in semi-autos can hang up on the fabric. Revolver cylinders can lock up with fouling at the forcing cone. No mechanical device is 100% foolproof.
What I have tried to do with the XR9 is create a positive mechanism that does not rely on bullet shape. The only caveat is that the ammo has to have a good crimp (just as is required in airweight revolvers) to prevent bullet back-out. Aluminum-cased ammo normally is not crimped and will come apart. The experience for aluminum-cases ammo is something like this: Chamber and fire first round, pull trigger again and you hear a "pop" (just the primer going off); eject fired case; remove magazine and pick out the lone bullet sitting on top.
I have shot at least 1000 straight without any type of cleaning or lube. Lubricant merely reduces the wear and tear - it does not affect reliability. Some have aired concerns about debris getting in the lifting mechanism. With US ammo, this area stays very clean. When I run some of the cruddier Russian ammo through there, it is a different story. I had run a 1/2-case (500 rounds) through the XR9-S of this stuff and the whole inside of the gun was covered with cruddy black stuff. I used a spray product called "Gun Scrubber" and the gun was spotless in seconds (I got this stuff about 20 years ago - I hope they still make it). By the way, this Russian ammo was steel cased with some kind of sticky varnish on it - but that didn't affect feeding in the XR9 one bit.
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on
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As far as the extremes of bullet shape - I have successfully shot (and fed) cast lead wadcutters through the XR9-S; however, the lead bullet protruded about .25" from the case, and with the sharp corner of the bullet, it would catch on the chamber (headspace) shoulder, gouging a little material out of one corner of the bullet so I would occasionally have to palm the slide the last 1/8 inch (or less) for it to go into battery since the deformed lead bullet was now dragging in the chamber throat. To remedy this, the wadcutter either needs to have a .015" chamfer (are they still considered wadcutters at this point?) or loaded flush with the case mouth, so, from the side, they would look like empty cases. For sure, the flush-loaded wadcutter would feed nicely since the XR9 feeds empty cases at any speed. I just have to work up the loads for this - the wadcutters I have are quite long and won't leave much room for powder.
Just so everyone knows - the Boberg XR9 series of pistols, like many other firearms on the market, are not rated for hand loads. The only exception would be loads factory-certified by Boberg Arms Corp.
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Permalink Reply by BretShooter on -
Arne Boberg said:As far as the extremes of bullet shape - I have successfully shot (and fed) cast lead wadcutters through the XR9-S; however, the lead bullet protruded about .25" from the case, and with the sharp corner of the bullet, it would catch on the chamber (headspace) shoulder, gouging a little material out of one corner of the bullet so I would occasionally have to palm the slide the last 1/8 inch (or less) for it to go into battery since the deformed lead bullet was now dragging in the chamber throat. To remedy this, the wadcutter either needs to have a .015" chamfer (are they still considered wadcutters at this point?) or loaded flush with the case mouth, so, from the side, they would look like empty cases. For sure, the flush-loaded wadcutter would feed nicely since the XR9 feeds empty cases at any speed. I just have to work up the loads for this - the wadcutters I have are quite long and won't leave much room for powder.
Just so everyone knows - the Boberg XR9 series of pistols, like many other firearms on the market, are not rated for hand loads. The only exception would be loads factory-certified by Boberg Arms Corp.
Advice on load length, and a no reload endorsement? I am hoping you are expecting the same "horrendous" rate of failure that, say Ruger has due to reloads?
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Permalink Reply by BretShooter on
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BretShooter said:Arne Boberg said:As far as the extremes of bullet shape - I have successfully shot (and fed) cast lead wadcutters through the XR9-S; however, the lead bullet protruded about .25" from the case, and with the sharp corner of the bullet, it would catch on the chamber (headspace) shoulder, gouging a little material out of one corner of the bullet so I would occasionally have to palm the slide the last 1/8 inch (or less) for it to go into battery since the deformed lead bullet was now dragging in the chamber throat. To remedy this, the wadcutter either needs to have a .015" chamfer (are they still considered wadcutters at this point?) or loaded flush with the case mouth, so, from the side, they would look like empty cases. For sure, the flush-loaded wadcutter would feed nicely since the XR9 feeds empty cases at any speed. I just have to work up the loads for this - the wadcutters I have are quite long and won't leave much room for powder.
Just so everyone knows - the Boberg XR9 series of pistols, like many other firearms on the market, are not rated for hand loads. The only exception would be loads factory-certified by Boberg Arms Corp.
Advice on load length, and a no reload endorsement? (sarcasm) I am hoping you are expecting the same "horrendous" rate of failure that, say Ruger has due to reloads? (/sarcasm)
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on
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Not so much failure rate as risk of overloading and double-charge. We want to avoid, "Your honor - the manfacturer didn't say I couldn't do this before it blew up in my face..."
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Permalink Reply by hakan seckin on
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you remind me that microwave and cat law suit!! :)
Arne Boberg said:Not so much failure rate as risk of overloading and double-charge. We want to avoid, "Your honor - the manfacturer didn't say I couldn't do this before it blew up in my face..."
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