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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Billy Bob Big-Johnson on -
"Free advice" is worth what you pay for it.
Arne Boberg said:I always appreciate free advice - it offsets what I pay in legal fees!
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Permalink Reply by Scott on -
Arnie,
I am impressed that you are an engineer. As you know, the determination
of the first product specs is quite a riddle. It is a combination of what
you can do, at a cost allowing profit based on what customers are
willing to pay and what the competition is now and may be doing
in the future.
You have zeroed in on the
benefit of your new action which is both more power and smaller package
in 9mm. But the competition could add an ounce or two of metal to handle
the +P pressure stresses and offset your power advantage only if your
gun is limited to standard power level ammo.
If your product performs well and your reputation develops positively,
investors will seek you out and want to be a part of a successful growth
enterprise. If you stumble, well it wont be pretty. That is why I say
make it tough and reliable.... If there are design constraints against
building an unbreakable tank, then make it easily repairable with wear
components that are designed to be replaced economically.
I'm for ya buddy,
BTW, I did some freeze frame activity on your function animation
and got 8 different photos that I can sequence through at the
speed that I want. your animation happens so fast, I cannot follow
it real well. If you can put a super slow motion switch on it, that
would be great. I know you said powerpoint was available, but my
freeze frame snapshots were easier.
It really is an awesome design, a hundred years from now
folks will look back at the original design of all the futuristic
pistols yet to be made and you will be like this century;s John
Browning. - Attachments:
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on -
You know, Scott - all those "frozen images" are in the Powerpoint file - and each is in high def. The only way to slow it down in video mode would be to load the .mpg into Moviemaker and "stack" more of the same images in the timeline to expand the number of seconds of play. I think Microsoft did the world a disservice when the new Media Players could no longer allow you to click through a video frame-by-frame (at least I haven't found a way to do it in anything newer than Media Player 10.0)
Just so you know, the XR9-S is rated for +P ammo. Aside from switching to a larger caliber, the XR9 will always have the power advantage for a given size gun.
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Permalink Reply by Harry Truman on -
It's hard to keep an objective perspective on a product when you're so personally and deeply involved with it on a 24/7 basis. Arrange to have focus groups, both gun owners and prospective gun owners, evaluate different models...might be an eye opening experience. Also, money spent on professional marketing consultants should pay dividends. Know who your customers are and what they want! I, for one, plan to by shorty when it comes out, but I would rather have a micro for front pocket carry. Ease of draw is as important as concealment and weight to me.
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Permalink Reply by anonymous on
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For what it's worth, my vote is for the micro model. I will wait until the release of the micro model before buying an XR9.
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Permalink Reply by Charles R Cox on
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No idea but after spending dozens of hours in the Internet looking at a substitute from my old S&W Model 39 in a pocket gun available in the same caliber I choose the proposed Boberg Micro and shall wait for its production and distribution.
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Permalink Reply by scott saren on
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i'm in the market for what the shorty has to offer, as said in a different thread front or back pocket carry and weight that is managable i think the shorty can be compared to rohrbaugh r9s or the kahr pm 9 which are quality hand-guns lets compare apples to apples
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Permalink Reply by alternety on
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Gut feeling from a relative novice.
Not being able to hold one of these (let alone fire it) is a large risk factor in shelling out the price you are currently asking for the weapon. My feeling in reading everything on this site, is that there is significant merit to the ballistic performance of this weapon, the recoil management, and its' durability. But I am still taking a significant risk in purchasing it. The short and non-transferable warranty does not help in this respect either.
Control is a significant factor in a small gun. I would think a micro version in 9mm and a follow-on .40 shorty would perhaps make more sense. I would buy that (the .40 shorty) I think. Depending on magazine capacity. The even smaller micro may become uncomfortable/uncontrollable with .40 etc. as well as having a smaller magazine capacity. If it works, it would be seriously cool. But I think you would need to at least match ammunition in the shorty.
In my opinion, after getting 9mm +P in the shorty, a new staggered magazine would be more desirable to me than going to .40. More 9mm would seem to be more useful than the same or fewer .40. Hitting the target (BG) in a confrontation with fewer but more powerful rounds strikes me as less important than having more opportunities to strike with a reasonably effective round. When the s**t hits the fan, more chances seems important. Particularly if the # of BG > 1. In a confrontation, it is real likely that what is in the gun is what you get. Quantity is its' own reward. If I could get a compact pocketable .380 with a 50 round magazine or a 7 round 9mm in the same form factor (obviously that can't happen), I would go with the .380.
Just my perception of the important parameters of a pocket defense weapon. Actually, pocket is irrelevant. A concealable 50 round handgun would rule.
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Permalink Reply by mike on
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some very well thought out and said input in this post. i would say that the boberg trend looks good depending on many factors like reliability,accuracy (within reasonable limits-10 meters IMHO on a carry gun) ability to conceal and get into action quickly-more dependent on holsters and clothes than the gun itself,reasonable after market stuff-lasers et al),power - which +P 9mm satisfies in the above parameters. concealing ain't that easy. i live in FL and there in aug it is a challenge. i REALLY have gotten tired of the 1911 gurus who tell you that if you don't bring a big 45 along day to day,then you are a pussy and should bring a flower instead. these dorks are trying to sell copy and kimbers IMHO. the problem is of course $. poor/middle class folks need to carry also. that is why kel tec is a going thing. owned many. they are crude and nasty but work. i want a bit better option,thus my interest here.
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Permalink Reply by CWC on -
Arne Boberg said:
An idea that came up was to introduce the Micro in either a .40 S&W or .45 ACP to create a true "pocket beast".Arne just let me know when your ready for my check for that Micro 45 !
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Permalink Reply by LASZLO DIGIOIA on -
Yeah, +1 to what VMole8 said. Let's not allow THAT much apprehension against brand dilution. If you make it, they will come. Some people are XR-double L in .380 kinda folks while others are XR-S-and-a-half in 5.7x28 or 7.92x24. This design is solid and ready to "dilute baby dilute".
Arne Boberg said:
... - especially the "brand dilution" aspect. From our end we would have to invest in new tooling for a shorter magazine and grip panels. The only real benefits are that we would have the smallest 9mm in height and width and the consumer would have a more pocketable shorter grip.
An idea that came up was to introduce the Micro in either a .40 S&W or .45 ACP to create a true "pocket beast".
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Permalink Reply by VMole8 on
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I'm especially enthusiastic about the Micro, considering height is a major factor in pocket carry. However, I'm also weighing the following regarding anything fatter than a 9mm.
The average defensive shooting results in a roughly 30% hit rate against an often erratically moving, bladed target. Add this to the fact that penetration of small, vital structures is the only reliable way to physiologically force rapid cessation of the threat, and it's clear that every round available is a good thing.
Modern expanding ammunition designs have become so reliable that, as long as they strike within their proper velocity envelope, the difference in wound severity among the three service calibers is too insignificant to justify sacrificing slimness and further magazine capacity in a pocket pistol. The slimness and shortness ensures you have the pistol with you, and the 9mm caliber gives you 1 extra chance to make the hit that counts with a perfectly effective round. The Boberg barrel length advantage ensures the velocity is sufficient for expansion through thick clothing and other barriers, especially with the inherently slower heavy bullets which penetrate closer to the 18" FBI ideal.
It's important to note that handgun velocities are insufficient for the impact energy itself to translate into fight stopping effects in a person. The energy is spread over the length of the wound track, and the radial velocity and size of the temporary cavity is well within the dynamic limits of elastic tissue, reaching only 1/10th of the projectile's forward velocity. It's not until a fragmenting or expanding round with sharp edges strikes with velocities in excess of 2000 fps that tearing beyond the projectile's diameter occurs in elastic tissue. This may be something that Arne could explore as a selling point in a full-size Boberg design utilizing a proprietary bottleneck cartridge with a smaller caliber projectile of a fragmenting or expanding design, with good remaining sectional density to ensure ~16" of penetration. Perhaps a 10mm case necked down to accept a ~6mm bonded hollowpoint projectile. These would need a crimp and cannelure for security. If you could reach a solid 2150-2250 fps with a proper projectile in a service-size pistol with a tritium marked empty chamber flag and double stack magazine (the bottleneck perhaps a greater or lesser challenge than what you've figured out so far), you could effectively offer the terminal performance of an assault rifle cartridge from a pistol at typical pistol engagement ranges.
A smaller caliber projectile at such velocities could even have soft armor penetrating capabilities with proper bullet design while still maintaining some solid terminal performance. Both the rifle-like wound profile combined with sufficient penetration with a bonded projectile and optional armor penetrating ability would be very attractive to police if ammunition was sufficiently available at a reasonable cost.
While this suggestion might draw comparisons to the poor FN 5.7mm, while travelling at sufficient velocity, they are very light, short .22 projectiles with poor sectional density which can't be made to both fragment and penetrate sufficiently for effective terminal performance. They either punch a clean hole or completely fragment and fail to reach vitals without a perfect, unobstructed angle.
Food for thought. This all occurred to me after I read that you broke 2000fps with that RBCD round. While it's a terrible round terminally, it shows that with a bonded projectile of similar weight and greater sectional density, you could do amazing things terminally with a full size or even G19 sized compact.
Arne Boberg said:I agree with you in many respects - especially the "brand dilution" aspect. From our end we would have to invest in new tooling for a shorter magazine and grip panels. The only real benefits are that we would have the smallest 9mm in height and width and the consumer would have a more pocketable shorter grip. The grip on the proposed Micro (.275" shorter than the longer XR9 grip) would still be more substantial than on a PM9 due to the deeper shape of the backstrap, and the "horn" on the magazine floorplate. The front strap length would be about the same as on the PM9. I have large hands and rely on the texturing of the PM9 grip to hang on since my fingers get very little purchase on the front strap.
An idea that came up was to introduce the Micro in either a .40 S&W or .45 ACP to create a true "pocket beast".
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