45 GAP Boberg?
Since 10% of the State Police agencies in the US are now carrying sidearms chambered in 45 GAP - and I expect numerous other law enforcement agencies at the local and county level (since Glock is making a change to the cartridge/firearm model very attractive) -- how about a Boberg pocket pistol chambered in 45 GAP?
I know -- I was a staunch "who needs it, the 45 ACP is fine" guys...before I shot a Glock G39.
The OAL of the 45 GAP catridge is actually slightly shorter than the 9mm Para -- so the design and overall footprint of the pistol would involve few changes. The pressure of the cartridge is no issue.
Since I will be carrying a Glock G37 Gen 4 as a duty sidearm occasionaly in the near future, I would very much like to have a true pocket sized pistol in 45 GAP for a back-up. I like my G39s as CCWs for IWB carry -- but if Arne could do something in 45 GAP in comparison to the Glock G39 as he has been able to do with the XR9 in comparison to the Glock G26, I'll put a pre-order request in RIGHT NOW for one!
Arne -- seriously, give the 45 GAP some thought!
Thanks,
Bill
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on -
I actually bought a box of .45 GAP to get a feel for this cartridge. I like the slightly shorter overall length versus the .45 Auto. It would definitely involve less radical design changes to fit this cartridge in than the .45 Auto. I'm not sure whether I can achieve the goal I had mentioned earlier about making an XR45-S smaller than an XR9-S, but I'm guessing I'd have a lot better chance doing it with a .45 GAP cartridge. Any thoughts on popularity among civilians?
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Permalink Reply by William.Stinson on
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Honestly, the civilian response to the 45 GAP cartiridge has been slow. However, I do see an increase in civilian use. So many people have firearms chambered in 45 ACP that it has been difficult to convince them that the 45 GAP has any value. Those who have small hands do appreciate the smaller platforms that can be designed around the cartridge.
When we look at what happened to the 10mm Auto / 40 S&W development, many thought because a similar reaction wasn't embraced by the shooting public for the 45 GAP that it was destined to the a "dead cartridge". I personally don't feel that is an accurate comparison. The 10mm Auto was a relatively new cartridge -- for both law enforcement and civilians alike. When the FBI requested ammo manufacturers to download the cartridge ( a disservice to the cartridge due to the relatively few agents who had difficulty with the recoil) , S&W had the brillant idea to develop the .40 S&W. Since law enforcement and civilians alike had long wanted an auto cartridge to bridge the gap between the heavy & slow and light & fast projectile proponents -- both embraced the new development of the 40 S&W to the point where it has the lion share of law enforcement agencies using it. Because the LEOs are using it -- the civilian shooters jumped on board.
I believe that we are seeing a trend where many agencies are moving away from the 40 S&W -- in favor of the 45 ACP and 45 GAP. The 45 GAP has less felt recoil and muzzle flip than the 40 S&W but has all the power long appreciated by the 45 ACP folks. The fact that the cartridge is shorter and allows its use in a smaller platform makes it attractive to both LEOs and civilians. I honestly believe that the State Police agencies that have adopted the 45 GAP have done so for valid reasons other or in addition to the attractive pricing by Glock to use the G37, G38, and G39s.
The downside to the 45 GAP initially was the lack of other manufacturers deciding to produce a weapon in the loading. Because Glock as such a large market share, I feel many manufacturers want nothing to do with a cartridge with the Glock name associated with it. Para Ordnance and Springfield Armory did produce some firearms in 45 GAP -- simply rechambered existing designs rather than new designs. However, they have since dropped them from production.
Another downside to the 45 GAP was the higher cost of ammunition when it was released (law of supply and demand). Over time, this argument has lost merit -- in that 45 GAP ammo can be bought for roughly the same cost as 45 ACP, and sometimes cheaper today. Supply was a problem as well in that many local gun shops just didn't stock it. However, many shooters buy their ammunition via the internet now -- and finding both affordable bulk target loads (Georgia Arms Ammunition) as well as excellent self defense loads (Speer Gold Dot) is not a problem.
My belief is that if you built a small personal protection pistol in 45 GAP -- people will buy it who don't have another firearm in the cartridge, as long as the footprint is truly smaller than what they can find in other firearms chambered in 45 ACP. Your design for the Shorty appeals to those who really want the most power from the smallest package. The 45 GAP would fill this requirement nicely for a big bore pocket pistol.
Those who own other firearms in 45 ACP who reload should not protest too much -- since both 45 GAP and 45 ACP can be reloaded in the same dies.
Build it -- and people will buy it! Trust me, 3500 Florida Highway Patrol Troopers would find such a pistol VERY interesting...
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Permalink Reply by CWC on -
Arne Boberg said:I actually bought a box of .45 GAP to get a feel for this cartridge. I like the slightly shorter overall length versus the .45 Auto. It would definitely involve less radical design changes to fit this cartridge in than the .45 Auto. I'm not sure whether I can achieve the goal I had mentioned earlier about making an XR45-S (45 ACP) smaller than an XR9-S, but I'm guessing I'd have a lot better chance doing it with a .45 GAP cartridge. Any thoughts on popularity among civilians?
I'll take 2!
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on
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I'm just about ready to start designing it....I can't wait. Any other feedback on this cartridge would be appreciated!
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Permalink Reply by CWC on
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5+1 (with a 7 round extended mag option), smaller than a XR9-S
The Georgia State Patrol uses them here. I go to lots of gunshops and "look" and see 45 gap ammo, both ball and hp, on the shelves of most of them. Not near as much as the 45acp but there is plenty to choose from.
I think it's a fantastic idea!
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I just posted a link to this discussion on the Glock Talk subgroup for 45 GAP fans -- the Bull Dawg Club:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18407486#post18407486
Hopefully, we will see a positive response from existing 45 GAP shooters -- law enforcement and civilian alike!
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Permalink Reply by GONRA; on -
GONRA wants the .45 caliber Boberg to be .45 ACP.
Remember, .45 GAP is a slightly SUBRIMMED cartridge.
May NOT be the best for hooking onto rim and dragging out backwards?
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Permalink Reply by Arne Boberg on
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I just printed out the SAAMI drawing of this cartridge. The rim diameter is only .006" less than the case, which will have no effect on the XR feeding mechanism. In fact, I think it can tolerate a much larger difference, like on a .50 GI or .50 Beowulf cartridge.
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Plus, the shorter case length of the 45 GAP will allow it to clear the chamber and eject more easily (and reliably) I expect. It would definitely allow for a smaller overall pistol.
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Permalink Reply by CWC on
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Bruce, you start alot of your post with "GONRA". Who or what does that mean?
Bruce Bydal; said:GONRA wants the .45 caliber Boberg to be .45 ACP.
Remember, .45 GAP is a slightly SUBRIMMED cartridge.
May NOT be the best for hooking onto rim and dragging out backwards?
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Permalink Reply by Kevin Hazelwood on
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Sign me up! I am now following this thread and will put my name on the first waiting list I find...
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